From ns.itep.ru!CERN.ch!EU.net!howland.reston.ans.net!ix.netcom.com!netcom.com!jdredd Sun Dec 24 17:12:40 1995 Newsgroups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.soundcard.misc Path: ns.itep.ru!CERN.ch!EU.net!howland.reston.ans.net!ix.netcom.com!netcom.com!jdredd From: jdredd@netcom.com (Vince Vu) Subject: Re: DB50XG & SCC-1 and SCD-15 Message-ID: Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest) References: <4bdca7$oo8@abac.au.ac.th> <4beqlo$h8t@news.onramp.net> Date: Fri, 22 Dec 1995 20:59:46 GMT Lines: 24 Sender: jdredd@netcom20.netcom.com daronm@onramp.net (Daron Myrick) writes: >|Any one could give me comaprision of YAMAHA DB50XG, >|ROLAND SCD-15 and SCC-1 >The DB50XG is a very odd card in that it sounds better than any of the other cards mentioned above when >MIDI files are written specificly for it, though GM and GS files that don't take advantage of the XG features, >as a general rule sound worse than any of the above cards. I just bought the DB50XG last week. Well, the 23 demo files which are sequenced specifically for XG, sound great. But other than that, the DB50XG doesn't sound quite as good as a SoundCanvas. Particularly since the String Section split at C#4/D4 is really, really obnoxious. The strings really suck because of that. The FrenchHorn sounds too dark, probably because of a low sample rate. The NylonGuitar, sounds like the strings are really elastic, the attacks on the guitar are too soft. But a section on the DB50XG that really kicks *ss is the percussion. The DB50XG's drums definitely have more kick, and punch than the SoundCanvas, except for the Ride Cymbals. The Ride Cymbals on the DB50XG sound like they are really tarnished, andbeing muted, again probably because of a low sample rate. The effects processor is just awesome, but too bad you can't route a realtime input through it. From ns.itep.ru!CERN.ch!EU.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!info.ucla.edu!ihnp4.ucsd.edu!sdcc12.ucsd.edu!sdcc5!hho Sun Dec 24 17:13:39 1995 Path: ns.itep.ru!CERN.ch!EU.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!info.ucla.edu!ihnp4.ucsd.edu!sdcc12.ucsd.edu!sdcc5!hho From: hho@sdcc5.ucsd.edu (Steve H.C.H.) Newsgroups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.soundcard.misc Subject: Re: DB50XG & SCC-1 and SCD-15 Date: 23 Dec 1995 09:18:09 GMT Organization: University of California, San Diego Lines: 23 Message-ID: <4bghgh$se7@sdcc12.ucsd.edu> References: <4bdca7$oo8@abac.au.ac.th> <4beqlo$h8t@news.onramp.net> In article <4beqlo$h8t@news.onramp.net> daronm@onramp.net (Daron Myrick) writes: >|Any one could give me comaprision of YAMAHA DB50XG, >|ROLAND SCD-15 and SCC-1 > >The DB50XG is a very odd card in that it sounds better than any of the other cards mentioned above when >MIDI files are written specificly for it, though GM and GS files that don't take advantage of the XG features, >as a general rule sound worse than any of the above cards. I agree with the above completely. After comparing the DB50XG with my SCC-1 and Sndscp-Elite, I also feel that DBXG sounds better than Rol and Ens when playing back those XG files. However, if one listens carefully, DBXG's "real instrument" patches (eg. strings, trumpet, piano, etc.) do not sound as realistic as the ones in Rol and Ens. Since GM MIDI uses these instruments often, with out the XG effects to enhence/mask these patches, DBXG sounds inferior when playing GM files. So, I guess DBXG would be good if you want to compose your own music. (more patches and controls/effects) But if you want a MIDI card for games, than SCC-1 would be a better choice. Of course, all the above are MHO. :) -DD From ns.itep.ru!CERN.ch!EU.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!newshost.convex.com!news.onramp.net!daronm Sun Dec 24 17:14:50 1995 Path: ns.itep.ru!CERN.ch!EU.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!newshost.convex.com!news.onramp.net!daronm From: daronm@onramp.net (Daron Myrick) Newsgroups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.soundcard.misc Subject: DB50XG Second Evaluation Date: Sat, 23 Dec 95 08:30:35 GMT Organization: On-Ramp; Individual Internet Connections; Dallas/Ft Worth/Houston, TX USA Lines: 94 Message-ID: <4bgi19$gtt@news.onramp.net> X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 The DB50XG is the first of a series of XG compatible cards made by Yamaha. Unlike future versions of Yamaha XG cards for the PC, the DB50XG is a daughter card for connecting to a WaveBlaster compatible header while future cards will be full blown 16bit ISA cards. The DB50XG sounds excellent playing MIDI files written for it! On the other hand, one can expect poor and medium quality playback of GM and GS files NOT written for XG modules which makes the DB50XG dependant on MIDI files written for XG for any kind of excellent playback. The above will be Yamaha's failure if Yamaha keeps it up since XG is not very common at all at the time of this writing and the card basicly sounds aweful when playing normal GM and GS MIDI files without each and every GM and GS MIDI file having to be tweaked for the DB50XG. How poor is it? Let's put it this way, Creative Labs CQM technology that doesn't use Wavetable samples at all and sometimes sounds better when playing normal GM and GS files on the DB50XG. This problem of good quality playback when using normal GM and GS compatible MIDI files is nothing new since alot of people are complaining that Yamaha's professional XG Modules sound just as bad when not playing XG MIDI files too. As far as samples, most of them are on par with EMU's and Roland's samples except a few which are noted now: (1) "Orchestra Hit" sounds GOD aweful to say the least. When listening to the Orchestra Hit patches the first thing that comes to mind is "Where's the Orchestra?", "Did a car wreck outside?" and "I wonder if Yamaha made a ROM mask mistake on it's Orchestra hit samples?". Let me be more frank than my normal picky, blunt, vulgar and irritating self.... I've never heard a sample that was so aweful that I litteraly considered putting a virtual peice of masking tape over the patch. You know how one put's masking tape over a bad light switch so others won't flip the bad light switch? That's how I feel to the point of a compulsion to reverse engineer my EMAGIC LOGIC sequencer just so that I can make it impossible to even play that darned orchestra hit sample. I think Yamaha got orchestra hit confused with "Entire orchestra riding in bus going 200 miles per hour gets in a head on collision with a freight train" or "Entire orchestra dropped from 10 miles up without parachutes finnaly hitting concrete". Yes, it's that bad. (2) "Flute" sounds different than my accustomed EMU and Roland flute types. Yes, the DB50XG does have samples of a flutes instead of flute emulation but it sounds like flutes were recorded through a pillow or spring matress (I.E. Sounding extremely dull). A flute sampled properly (like by EMU or Roland) has a certain essence in it's higher frequency components (Harmonics) that is inspiring, awesome and stands out not in volume but in etheral clarity. Yamaha's flutes sound dull and after having surgery on my left ear a year ago I can say that at certain frequencies when flute is being played, my left ear hurts terribly. The last time my left ear hurt when listening to a sample was half a year ago when playing GEX on the 3DO and the Gecco kept saying "OUCH" when I goofed up. (3) Almost all samples are mapped oddly. In other words, samples sound fine one minute, go a key up and the patch wigs out. Not wigging out as in sounding aweful but as in being bright one minute then suddenly going dark on the next key, then the key after is suddenly bright again. For example, "Voice Ahh's" really sounds great except for Middle E played by itself which sounds almost like a completely different sample thrown in from a completely different company. Voice Ahh on Middle E definitely is not only more brighter but is really wigged on it's frequency content. All of the above negative points aside (I'm very picky and have extremely trained/experienced ears so take my writings with the knowledge that I am not much impressed with anything) the DB50XG has alot of excellent positives going for it. First, it has true 18bit DAC's on it's outputs which go above even Roland's Daughtercards which in the USA only have 16bit DAC's. Sounds noticibly better than other cards, clarity wise when stacking voices deep (Again due to it's 18bit DAC's). It's samples in general are of excellent quality (Despite that when Yamaha goofs a patch, they really goof a patch!), especialy brass, strings and all woodwinds (except flute), with some patches sounding much better than EMU and Rolands patches. It's control parameters are extremely much more vast than EMU and Roland Synths combined (Which is a good thing since the DB50XG definitely needs patch tweaking big time). It's effects and effects parameters are simply amazing, certain to put a smile on your face and keep you busy creating new effects for months to come. [SNIP (DUE TO THE FACT I COULD BE REPETITIVE FOREVER] Summary: The DB50XG's samples/patches can be separated into two groups (Black and White) very easily. When Yamaha makes a good sample/patch, they make the best samples you have ever heard!!! When Yamaha makes a not so good sample/patch, you can be guaranteed that not only will it be off from optimum but it will be all out aweful and somewhat painful to the point of wanting to go out and commit crimes. Again, Yamaha's patches can easily be divided into black and white which is why normal GM and GS MIDI files sound so bland, FM'ish and sometimes worse than anything else you have heard. Fortunately, when using the DB50XG with XG specific MIDI files, not only does the DB50XG sound much better than anything else in the "Sound on a stick" PC soundcard market (I.E. Non pro) it's flaws seem to litteraly dissapear which makes me beleive that it's samples as a whole are not at fault but, it's patches are it's shortcoming, which it's patches are over-ridden when using XG MIDI. Am I going to keep my DB50XG? Yes, since I have more control than several top pro modules combined into one card and an excellent card when composing/playing XG specific MIDI. Will I get as fanatic over the DB50XG as I did over the SCD-15? Time will tell. Let's only hope that Yamaha's patches are to blame instead of their samples, since patches can easily be changed while it's samples are stuck in ROM (ARRRG). NOTE: The reason I bought the DB50XG is to learn the XG format, make a pro XG editor librarian and prepare for the release of the DB70XG which is my "princess with flaxen hair!!!" Let's hope Yamaha either forget's to put Sample/Patch ROM on the DB70XG and allows for at least 8meg Sample RAM (forget the 512K onboard RAM Yamaha, Since no one will use it for more than a week without expanding their memory) or Yamaha has a change of sample/patch making crew, makes much better samples/patches in general and possibly put's 8meg of patch/sample ROM on the DB70XG which will not only be a first but will match a level I feel positive about which is several steps away from the average "Sound on a stick" Soundcard. The DB70XG has excellent, and I mean THE MOST EXCELLENT, hardware, features etc. ever to grace the PC. Let's hope it's firmware and software don't ruin it. From ns.itep.ru!CERN.ch!EU.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!newshost.convex.com!news.onramp.net!daronm Sun Dec 24 17:20:09 1995 Path: ns.itep.ru!CERN.ch!EU.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!newshost.convex.com!news.onramp.net!daronm From: daronm@onramp.net (Daron Myrick) Newsgroups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.soundcard.misc Subject: DB50XG under Win95 (Win95 users read this or wish you had!) Date: Sat, 23 Dec 95 08:48:05 GMT Organization: On-Ramp; Individual Internet Connections; Dallas/Ft Worth/Houston, TX USA Lines: 19 Message-ID: <4bgj22$gtt@news.onramp.net> X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 I don't know if it's Win95 or Creative Lab's drivers or both but there is a bad problem using the DB50XG soundcard (Any Daughtercard for that matter) with Win95 that can be easily fixed. The problem is, Win95 and/or the Creative Lab MIDI drivers insist on only using the MIDI channels 1-10 by default and is quite inflexible to change things so that all 16 MIDI channels are used. In my first evaluation of the DB50XG, I made an extremely grave mistake by not enabling all 16 channels for the external MIDI driver under Win95. At the time, I though that Win95/Creative Labs drivers automaticly allowed all 16 channels to pass through and work but obviously not by default since last night I enabled all 16 channels and the DB50XG bloomed to full power when using XG files. When only MIDI channels 1-10 are used on the DB50XG, not only does some notes not play since the upper channels are disabled, but alot of XG information is stored on channels 11-16 in Yamaha's XG MIDI demo files which really cripple the DB50XG when all 16 channels are not enabled. Unfortunately, the only way I have found to enable all 16 channels is by using Win95's MIDI mapper, and defaulting Win95 to a custom MIDI mapper Channel MAP. If anyone knows how to enable all 16 channels without having to use the somewhat slow, stubborn, rude and control parameter remapping MIDI mapper that comes with Win95 then please let me know. So, whatever you do, no matter how you do it, make sure that Win95 has all 16 MIDI channels enabled or you will be dearly missing out to the point where you will want to take almost every soundcard you buy back for your money. From ns.itep.ru!CERN.ch!EU.net!howland.reston.ans.net!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!cleveland.Freenet.Edu!aa699 Sun Dec 31 13:56:27 1995 Path: ns.itep.ru!CERN.ch!EU.net!howland.reston.ans.net!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!cleveland.Freenet.Edu!aa699 From: aa699@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Tony Thomas) Newsgroups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.soundcard.music Subject: Yamaha DB50XG Review Date: 31 Dec 1995 04:05:51 GMT Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA) Lines: 49 Message-ID: <4c526v$k4g@madeline.INS.CWRU.Edu> Reply-To: aa699@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Tony Thomas) I decided--what the heck--and sprung for one of those Yamaha Waveforce DB50XG daughterboards. I have a fully-functional Wavefront synth in the Maui (w/sampling) so I decided to add a different set of sounds to the Tahiti. After all a daughterboard is *much* cheaper than a synth or even a synth module. Installation was straightforward. I carefully removed the Rio and put the DB50XG in its place. It comes with standoffs which fit in the holes on the Monterey (or other Soundcard) and it simply plugs into the WB socket. There is absolutely no software or driver to install. From CWPA, you get to it through the Tahiti Header just like for the Rio. Interestingly, CWPA has built-in XG support (as well as GM and GS) so it is easy to get to its sounds. The patches are labeled in Cakewalk. Very nice. BTW, it has built-in reverb/chorus which can be assigned *per instrument* instead of globally as with the Rio. Although the unit is not programmable per se as it comes in the box (though it would be fairly easy to write an editor for it since all the MIDI info is included and someone will do it using Visual Basic or whatever), you can control a lot of the parameters *dynamically* using MIDI continuous controllers. Some of the parameters that can be controlled that way include bank select, volume, pan, data entry, expression, hold1, portamento, sostenuto, soft pedal, harmonic content (resonance), release time, attack time, brightness, portamento, effect depth (for chorus, reverb and variation effect), NRPN, RPN and poly aftertouch. In Cakewalk, you can set one of the mixing console knobs to control any of those functions in a mix or with a keyboard equipped with sliders or pedals. That means that, even though you are using presets, you have dynamic control over many parameters whilst playing or mixing. As for the sounds, it has a very solid set. I like some better than others, but I can say unequivocally that I prefer them to the Rio's. The drums are particularly good. It fills out the GS set in the Sound Canvas nicely. I feel that it is a great replacement for the Rio... -- aa699@Cleveland.Freenet.EDU - TONY THOMAS - The Thomas Group Integrated Communications Solutions SIGop Audio Arts SIG - Cleveland FreeNet From ns.itep.ru!CERN.ch!EU.net!howland.reston.ans.net!ix.netcom.com!netcom.com!fbunn Mon Jan 8 15:00:31 1996 Newsgroups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.soundcard.advocacy Path: ns.itep.ru!CERN.ch!EU.net!howland.reston.ans.net!ix.netcom.com!netcom.com!fbunn From: fbunn@netcom.com (Fred Bunn) Subject: Re: YAMAHA DB50XG Message-ID: Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest) X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1] References: <4cgqpf$1re@ccshst05.cs.uoguelph.ca> Date: Fri, 5 Jan 1996 15:04:51 GMT Lines: 42 Sender: fbunn@netcom.netcom.com Jian-xiong Wang (jxwang@uoguelph.ca) wrote: : Just bought it. The installation was indeed super easy. XG files sound good. : I am still disappointed. The piano doesn't really sound like piano. It : still sounds like electronic piano. Not worth the money in that point of : view and unfortunately that was what I need. Hi, Jian :) Have you tested the card in XG mode with the demo songs included on the CD? The Kate Bush "Wuthering Heights" song gets pretty darn close to re-creating the piano sound on that record (which was a Bosendorfer). Part of the problem is *everyone* has a different idea of what makes a good piano sound. Some folks love the Roland piano sounds, but they are a little to "electronic" for my tastes. It all depends on the intended use. The DB50XG's piano would be great for adding into a pop music mix (as would the Roland one really). If you really want superb piano sound, get one of the Kurzweil products like the Micropiano. It's a couple of hundred bucks, but does that one job *very* well. In my opinion, the coolest thing about the DB50XG is the flexibility of the onboard effects. Being able to individually effect each midi channel separately is hugely important if you're doing music demos. No other unit that I'm aware of comes even close in this deparment. I also think the bass sounds are among the best I've heard on anything short of a good sampler. Drums aren't bad either. On the whole, I'm very satisfied with my DB50XG. Nothing's perfect, but for the price I'm very happy. (I also own several other pro midi modules, and the sound is quite comparable to these). Every electronic instrument I've ever owned has some superb sounds and some that are note so good. The trick is using the best of what you've got for maximum results. I'm not trying to say you're wrong. If you don't like the piano, then you just *don't like it*. That's just fine. It's what makes the world turn. I just don't want lurkers to get the opinion the DB50XG is not any good. It all depends on the intended use. -Fred From ns.itep.ru!CERN.ch!EU.net!howland.reston.ans.net!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!peer-news.britain.eu.net!yama.mcc.ac.uk!io.salford.ac.uk!aber!bath.ac.uk!bsprmm Mon Jan 8 15:25:35 1996 Newsgroups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.soundcard.misc Path: ns.itep.ru!CERN.ch!EU.net!howland.reston.ans.net!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!peer-news.britain.eu.net!yama.mcc.ac.uk!io.salford.ac.uk!aber!bath.ac.uk!bsprmm From: bsprmm@bath.ac.uk (R M Maytum) Subject: Yamaha DB50XG comments and questions Organization: School of Biological Sciences, University of Bath, UK Message-ID: Date: Thu, 4 Jan 1996 16:47:40 GMT Lines: 59 Well having read the various comments about the DB50XG over the past couple of months on this (and the related) newsgroup(s) I decided to go ahead and get one. First impressions - as everyone has said, extremely easy to fit and 'set-up', virtually just plug-and-play (in the new jargon that everyone seems to like). Initial impressions from the demo songs on the supplied CD were very good, a long, long way ahead of FM synthesis. Documentation - again as had been said by other people, fine if you're used to the technical side of midi, but for a 'normal' user, absolutely no help what so ever. If Mike (from Yamaha) is out there listening, Yamaha _really_ need to get their act sorted out on this one. A little documentation aimed at the 'normal' user would help a great deal with people being able to appreciate and use the card properly. Problems - Yep there are a few. The card can be set up to run in XG, GM and GS modes. As has been said by other people in the past (whose comments I appreciated greatly), if the midi file being played doesn't include the appropriate reset codes at the beginning then you can end up with something that soesn't sound _at all_ like what it's supposed to, or even in some cases (with a couple of games) can cause the computer to seize up needing a reboot .... This is not good, especially if it takes you a while to catch on to what's going on (bearing in mind I'm not totally incompetant, and had read the posts about this sort of thing on the groups, I hate to think how an 'uninformed' user buying one from a shop would think ...) This problem was compounded in the short term by my inability to find the 'reset' midi files on the enclosed CD - I still can't find where they are - There are only the 60 midi samples + 23 (?) demo somgs in the DB50XG subdirectories and nothing other than read.me files in the root and visual composer ones ??? Where are they ???? I managed in the end to work out the correct SysEx commands to send to the board from the manual (and by looking at some other midi's using CakeWalk 3). Interestingly the Voyetra 'Midi Orchestrator' that came with my soundcard doesn't seem to send SysEx banks, and therefore doesn't reset the card with midis with SysEx's. By looking at other midi's some seem to manage to do something by sending stuff in the first couple of 'blank' bars ... Not quite sure how this works at the moment (?) as opposed to the SysEx banks that Cakewalk seems to use. This may of course be a problem to people using 'non-professional' midi players I guess, as they might not be getting the resets sent even if they are there ??? Overall though it seems like it's a pretty good card, let down by poor documentation and software support (like no easy access to all the possible effects options). On the subject of software is there an easy way to get hold of XGedit?? I tried the ftp site in the faq, but it wasn't readily apparent. I would appreciate any help in locating this as it appears to be the answer to at least some of my wishes ..... Robin Maytum (bsprmm@bath.ac.uk)